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General Category => General Discussion => : Manic_Schizo November 04, 2013, 10:49:57 AM

: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 04, 2013, 10:49:57 AM
I am only recently back into the sport, but am having a blast riding again. Have been out riding several different tracks across Brisbane over the last few weeks, and noticed quite a few tracks really lipping up jump faces a lot more than they used to. Is this a common trend lately with the development of the Supercross style tracks and the Olympic spec tracks becoming more popular? I much prefer the tracks that have good rhythm and flow and allow different lines and combo's through sections. Some of these sections I have ridden lately only really allowed one line and if you got it wrong, expect to get bucked and squirelly. Is this current trend happening across Australia??
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Big Block November 04, 2013, 11:41:37 AM
Yes there are some lippy tracks, equally thankfully there are still a few in Brisbane that aren't, I believe we are very lucky to have so many to choose from so can avoid those that we don't fancy!
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 04, 2013, 04:06:25 PM
Yeah that's true. One of the reasons I got back into the sport was because there are so many good tracks around to ride. I rode Pine Rivers yesterday for the first time in years, and remember how good that track used to be. Now it is gnarly and everything is peaked up. Any tips on which tracks are peaked up similar would be more than welcome. I might avoid them for the time being. I have ridden Beeleigh too, and that last straight is pretty sketchy as well.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: bmx4life97 November 06, 2013, 09:46:01 AM
No matter how many times you have a go at Beenleigh's last straight there is no quick way to get through it without killing yourself.  I have spent hours trying to figure that last straight out.  I won't be doing the shootout round that Beenleigh has because of it.  All the other tracks in Brisbane are great to race on and have a play on to
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Big Block November 06, 2013, 01:21:38 PM
No matter how many times you have a go at Beenleigh's last straight there is no quick way to get through it without killing yourself.  I have spent hours trying to figure that last straight out.  I won't be doing the shootout round that Beenleigh has because of it.  All the other tracks in Brisbane are great to race on and have a play on to
.

I know many riders share your sentiments, and have voiced them to the club, likewise I have heard several riders are also talking about skipping the track during the shootout.

There are ways to build a track that can still be a challenge to pro's as much as it is for sprockets.

I would love for the clubs to see rider feedback positively, and not as complaints!
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 06, 2013, 03:42:50 PM
No matter how many times you have a go at Beenleigh's last straight there is no quick way to get through it without killing yourself.  I have spent hours trying to figure that last straight out.  I won't be doing the shootout round that Beenleigh has because of it.  All the other tracks in Brisbane are great to race on and have a play on to
.

I know many riders share your sentiments, and have voiced them to the club, likewise I have heard several riders are also talking about skipping the track during the shootout.

There are ways to build a track that can still be a challenge to pro's as much as it is for sprockets.

I would love for the clubs to see rider feedback positively, and not as complaints!

Totally agree. Building tracks for 1% of riders isn't any good, and you are just gonna scare people away. That's not what the sport needs. Rode the Bayside track last night and damn, for a track that was very average for so many years, that track is awesome right now. The layout is great, the track flows, there are decent size jumps that still flow really well, and allow for good speed around the whole track. Other tracks should take notice. Their club membership is at an all time high and guys and girls drive from all over Brisbane to ride there. The track is always prepped perfectly, and from speaking with the guys running it, needs very little maintenance to keep it that way. Having a look at all the race tracks from all the big races in the USA, all their tracks have heaps of flow and rhythm. The big gnarly peaky jumps are all left for either the pro straights or purpose built Supercross tracks. We should be doing the same thing here. As for boycotting races, Beenleigh's last straight definitely is ordinary, and wouldn't be too upset missing that race, but would go out of my way to not race Pine Rivers. I am sure others also feel the same way. Dirt jump inspired bmx tracks are not the way track design should be going !!
: Re: Modern Track Design
: semipro74 November 06, 2013, 08:51:12 PM
I am in agreement with the above posts. I think everyone is becoming over excited by the UCI supercross tracks and trying to replicate them at a club level. I quite enjoy riding beenleigh, exept for the last straight. I think you'll find most races will end at the last corner and everyone will coast through the last straight.
Maybe clubs need to remember we are racing BMX not SX. There is a big difference between a motocross track and a supercross track.
I hope the trend does not continue otherwise I shall be back in retirement watch the kids trying to kill themselves.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 08, 2013, 10:41:31 AM
I rode another practice night last night, and overheard and was involved in a couple of discussions regarding Beenleigh's last straight, as well as the Pine Rivers track. Not one person had a good word to say about either track, and this was from guys that can ride. When guys are telling other guys to not even bother riding there, something is majorly wrong with the track design. It will be interesting to see if anything changes on either of these tracks in the near future.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Twintorque November 08, 2013, 02:27:48 PM
What will be interesting to see, is how the younger riders who are now regularly training on tracks like Beenleigh and Pine Rivers, or even Casino since their last overhaul, will compare against riders in their age group who are training on more traditional tracks in 12 months time.

There is a train of thought held by many, that unless you are being challenged you are not learning. Your home track should be your most technical track.

Personally, I would rather ride at Ipswich or bayside, where the track still flows well. It's more fun.

I see it that there are those clubs that are pushing the boundaries and giving their riders the best chance of international success, and there are those clubs who like BMX at the grass roots level still. I think you need both sorts of clubs.

I am a fan of Pro-straights for Pro riders, not Pro tracks for Pro riders.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 08, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
Look at it the other way. How many of those younger riders who ride those tracks will have had serious injuries, broken bones, concussions in 12 months time. Or, how many people will have left that club or how many newer riders to the sport have decided that the sport isn't for them because the "local" track is too advanced and dangerous. Claiming to be developing riders towards national and international success by building the local clubs bmx track into a gnarly, dangerous set of dirt jumps is narrow minded and delusional. The building blocks to success on an international level already exist and have done for years if you are good enough. Look at Willoughby. Trying to speed up the process by building up local tracks is not the way to go about it. 

Leave the big, peaky, gnarly stuff for pro straights, and pro straights only. Plenty of kids out there hitting them once they have the skills and confidence to do so. A lot of years up their sleeve also.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Twintorque November 09, 2013, 01:01:37 AM
I can see both sides of the argument personally, and accept the justification offered each way. I also don't like to personally criticise how another club has chosen to build their track too much.

I have yet to see a club that has raised the bar like this, suffer in new membership and have increased injury rates. But what I have seen, is a lot of older riders choose not to ride these newer more technical tracks. I don't like them either, and have considered not riding some but I like a challenge myself, so I tend to suck it up and get out there even if I do come last, and keep my thoughts to myself.

I guess the increased injury rates will come from riders trying to go fast on a track when they have not built the skill the track requires. This wont be at a club level I don't reckon. I don't see any problems in club membership both new and existing either, rather there may be less nominations the from older riders on open days or series rounds because of people who don't want to get beaten on a more technical track.

Don't get me wrong, I like more traditional flowing tracks as well. I also think that clubs need to ensure there is enough of the track for new riders to learn basic skills on. Grafton recently just got rid of their pro straight, which polarised the club a bit, but the result was great. The track has something for everyone. Hawkesbury have a brilliant take on it, with a "Kids straight" to give new riders what they need. Beenleigh and Pine rivers have both pushed boundaries in their own directions, but they still have nothing on Sleeman. Nerang still has a formidable first jump for many riders, but thats not unique either, Maitland has one just like it. Lets not mention Hinterlands Mammoth sprocket destroying start hill, or Woodonga's flat first corner.

Im just trying to point out that variety is a good thing in BMX, so is clubs pushing boundaries. Too much of the same thing does no-one any favours, hence my take on it. If you are worried about all clubs turning into mini Sx tracks, I don't think that will happen any time soon. There is still to many people on both sides of the fence.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: race69 November 09, 2013, 07:36:49 AM
i think i have said this before there are two types of BMX, SX and BMX some rider want to go down the road of SX and some want to do BMX. so clubs are catering for the two different styles.for those who know my baby son his direction is SX and is not really interested in following  the BMX or traditional type of tracks. so i guess riders need to make a decision  on what form of BMX they want to do before they pass criticism onto a track.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: the_merkin8r November 09, 2013, 11:35:13 AM
Look at a modern SX track and itíll appear to have all the ingredients to make it brilliant Ė turns & jumps designed by science and inspired by, or borrowed from, the best race's mind's in the world, stunning aesthetics and magnificent facilities. But somehow they feel like somethingís missing. a club/racetrackís got to have soul.......

p.s. and lot's of table top's !  ;D
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Big Block November 09, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
i think i have said this before there are two types of BMX, SX and BMX some rider want to go down the road of SX and some want to do BMX. so clubs are catering for the two different styles.for those who know my baby son his direction is SX and is not really interested in following  the BMX or traditional type of tracks. so i guess riders need to make a decision  on what form of BMX they want to do before they pass criticism onto a track.

But to be a SX track they need to comprise of far more than just lippy jumps, I know of only 1 in Australia that comes reasonably close (Sleeman)
: Re: Modern Track Design
: lucifer45 November 09, 2013, 03:09:24 PM
Up here in cairns they just built a new start hill which was all good but they decided to put in this rediculous first obstical right at the bottom of the ramp which no one in the club or zone could handle or jump there was that many crashes and injuries that there was a club meeting on the safety aspect of it and they had to change it .
 I know this is a high risk sport but you just have to start thinking about the the rest of the club members and not just one or two that maybe able to handle somthing like that because they were losing members over it .
But i give it to the commitie for trying somthing different but realise they failed and had to change it for the good of the club .
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo November 09, 2013, 09:12:15 PM
Great to see some good discussion going. Time will tell what happens with track design i guess. Will the talked about tracks change to give them back some more flow, or will other tracks follow suit and build up their tracks? Will be interesting.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Moggy361 November 10, 2013, 06:00:16 PM
I haven't had the opportunity to ride Beenleigh since it has been changed. I have ridden Pine Rivers a couple of times at open day and club level. The second straight at PR is the one that gets me worried. There just need to be a little more back side on the centre double. Tend to fly off it a little right now.
The third straight is a challenge, but I feel with a bit more time on the track I will get it sorted out. I find that I like the challenge of getting it right. I love the last straight and the new start hill.
43 and still learning.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Moggy361 November 29, 2013, 12:58:40 PM
Wouldn't you know it. I stacked on the second straight at Pine Rivers last Friday night. Apologies to the 3 guys that ran into my crash, especially the one that came away with a damaged bike. I was going faster than my skill level allowed.   :o  :-\  :'(
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo December 02, 2013, 09:57:43 AM
Damn, sorry to hear Moggy. She is a bit sketchy through there.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: bmxbandit December 28, 2013, 03:40:54 PM
First up I would like to clarify that I am not a member of any of the clubs who's tracks have been criticised in this thread.  But look at the results that their riders consistently achieve and they are doing something right.  I suspect the evolution of their tracks is a contributing factor?
: Re: Modern Track Design
: bigkid December 28, 2013, 06:38:17 PM
i have always said FLOW =FAST=FUN...some tracks seem to be taking the fun out of racing by making them way too technical.if you have to put your brakes on or clench your butt in a race then something must be wrong.i don't like the idea of a pro straight being the favourite line out of a corner.i race bmx not super cross! maybe there should be separate qld state titles? one held at sleemans and one at a club track....however i do like a track that has variety and some safe but technical sections.at some tracks the track builders don't even ride,which i think is a bit silly.
i agree some kids will need these more technical tracks to further develop thier skills however the regular club members far out number these riders.like someone else said we can't build a track for 1% of members...
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo December 29, 2013, 01:22:03 AM
First up I would like to clarify that I am not a member of any of the clubs who's tracks have been criticised in this thread.  But look at the results that their riders consistently achieve and they are doing something right.  I suspect the evolution of their tracks is a contributing factor?

Most clubs have riders that do well at state, national and international level. Point is moot. Everyone has access to Sleemans, so for those that think that is the best way to develop their riders and riding skills, go ride there. Supercross is only a small part of racing for an even smaller percentage of riders. Club level racing should be there to develop the sport as a whole. From kids riding K-Mart bikes, to Dads getting out there and riding for the first time. Some of the tracks out there are not suitable for this in my opinion.

BigKid puts it perfectly. Flow = Fast = Fun !!!

There are also other ways to develop jumping skills. Do it the old fashioned way and build or go ride some trails.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo March 01, 2014, 11:06:53 PM
So, what did everyone think of the revised Beenleigh track?? I personally think it was great. Was a good shootout round. Will be interesting to see how the new seal that the track has on it holds up on a public track. I hope it holds up well cos the track today was super smooth and fun. Hope it stays that way. Hearing rumours of several other tracks looking at also sealing their track surfaces. If it works and doesn't break down, a lot less maintenance would be required, and tracks would stay pretty much perfect year round. I hear that it does shred you like sandpaper if you crash on it, but that seems to be the only downside.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Big Block March 02, 2014, 03:24:24 PM
I decided weeks ago not to race at Beenleigh, I don't regret it, agree the surface is great, hopefully it is long lasting and durable.
From the sideline I found the racing to be quite boring to watch though, even the pro races were low speed, low skill and minimal passing...sorry but just my opinion.
Bring on Ipswich...
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo March 02, 2014, 08:36:46 PM
Definitely a fair point big block. Isn't a high speed track, Watching from the sidelines makes it look even worse, not sure why.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: intense March 02, 2014, 08:37:48 PM
I agree Big Block
: Re: Modern Track Design
: PKaye March 04, 2014, 06:50:39 AM
Modern track designs have been talked about for a while. In Oz after the worlds in Adelaide there was this thought process that everything needs to be deep and steep. This thought process I feel has been the contributing factor of people leaving the sport or moving from the clubs that have gone this way. The US continue to produce good fast tracks that cater for all levels of riding. The pros don't whinge they just race. Start hills are small and you don't see any 5m or above gates there except for Chula training centre, yet their riders consistantly do better on the world stage.
In Sydney, Macarthur has always catered for the majority of riders and as such has seen great success over the last few years with their open meeting sttracting an average of 500-600 entries. Each of the last few years has seen an exciting pro final where the lead has changed multiple times during the race. Membership continues to grow, the club is healthy and people like riding here. Penrith and Liverpool went the deep and steep way and ost members in the process. With this in mind Liverpool have just finished a deliberate toning down of their track and now people are raving about it.
It wassad to see the pics from Melba on the weekend with Ambulances lined up. This is not the way it should be.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Cyclops March 04, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Melba was the worst track I have been to, and yes there were crashes across all age classes and a steady stream of ambulances. Nine year olds were trying to jump the "hidden pro straight".

Their were three Police officers at the gate (they were hiding in the parked cars with a speed gun) and I heard them telling someone that after seeing the carnage the sport should be banned.

Definitely wasn't a good look for the sport  :(
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo March 04, 2014, 06:01:35 PM
Great posts guys. This goes to the heart of why this thread was started in the first place. Some more first hand examples of bad track design doing more harm than good, which is never good to hear about. Totally agree with your points about the US tracks, with all the tracks on their national circuit being very fast and flowing. The sport is in such a great spot at the moment, being a high profile Olympic sport and having very high rider counts at every race meet. We don't need to be forcing people out of the sport through injury, or scaring people away from the sport because of the possible injuries. Big, steep and deep jumps have their place, and that is on a Supercross track. Leave those obstacles away from club tracks, and focus on building a good, fast flowing, fun track to ride, and the club will thrive. Maybe there should be less Pro's designing tracks, especially when the track is aimed at only challenging pro level riders ??
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Moggy361 March 04, 2014, 11:01:45 PM
I raced Beenleigh on the weekend and was pleasantly surprised. The second straight rewarded effort put in and I was catching riders down there all day. I even pulled off a couple of very long manuals (at least for me).
 I am sure the changes to the last straight improved it, however I found it very difficult to stay fast and smooth through it.
The surface was interesting but I was copping a lot of grit in the face from the riders in front of me. Felt like more grit than from a crusher dust surface.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: PKaye March 05, 2014, 07:24:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3wE-fKJZFQ

I love this video especially at 11.30 where the they say that they have never lost focus of why they were founded, to promote kids and fun!

This video was 2010, but I don't think that that philosophy has gone. In fact their tracks seem to be better and they are now more organised.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo March 05, 2014, 05:17:52 PM
Cool vid. Hadn't seen it. Thanks for posting.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Simon32 March 06, 2014, 06:23:01 PM
Warragul track in Victoria got the dreaded rebuild 3-4 years ago, we were the last old school track in vic with a 6 lane manual start, 1 jump per straight and flat berms.. Out membership grew from 5 to almost 50 from 2006 to 2009.
The track was then flattened to make way for a counsil footpath and track totally rebuilt. The design was made (but sadly wasn't adhered too) and track work begun with the aid of a pro rider.. Finished product is $189000 white elephant and  something big and deep that won't attract riders, membership is way down again at 6 riders we use to get close to 80 riders at a club day...... Now we get none except for the couple from the 2 family's who try to run the meet.. Fair to say big and deep has killed our club..
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Waters29 March 07, 2014, 09:58:43 AM
It's such a shame that there seems to be no consideration of the less skilled or older riders these days. I was a member of Melba track as I live about 5 min drive from the track. But after the rebuild I cancelled my membership and joined Tuggeranong which is a 35 min drive for me.

Iím in the 40-44 class and at my age have no intention nor the skill to jump that second straight (THE HIDDEN PRO STRAIGHT LOL) and that means I simply canít race at the track without risking leaving the place in an ambulance, or smashing on my brakes out of the first corner.

On a Friday night club meeting each week about 6-8 of us older blokes show up, do gates then leave before racing starts, as we all feel the same itís just too dangerous.

I am the first to admit that the second straight would be amazing fun if I could jump it, and looks fantastic at the ACT titles when all the pros and skilled young riders jump it. But for the rest of us riders who love to race but donít have the required skills to jump it well itís horrible.

Why canít there be a compromise? I have been trying to get this to happen for 18 months and will continue to do so. But I am constantly told if we want our kids to progress to the next level we need this track. I am very much for our young kids being able to develop there skills and regularly take part in the ACT state training just to be able to ride with them. But CHAMPIONS like Caroline Buchanon and Lee Darrell didnít have this track growing up and they managed to do pretty well, so if its not exactly the same as it is now I am sure our young riders will still develop!

Im not saying bull doze the whole straight, I am just saying surely there can be a compromise for all skill levels. If not well isnt that what Pro straights are for?

I chose not to race the ACT titles last weekend because of the track which I know was my choice but itís a choice I am happy with. Go and ask any rider above 30 years old what they think of the track and I bet you get the same opinion as myself.

The tracks fantastic if you are aged between 14 to Pro but for the rest of us forget it

Rob
: Re: Modern Track Design
: PKaye March 07, 2014, 11:59:01 AM
I jump the second straight at Melba and don't find it fun!!!! I crashed on it at the last ACT's and decided that I would not ride there again. If you don't jump the straight you have to be on the anchors and what is the point of that??
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Waters29 March 07, 2014, 12:08:52 PM
I jump the second straight at Melba and don't find it fun!!!! I crashed on it at the last ACT's and decided that I would not ride there again. If you don't jump the straight you have to be on the anchors and what is the point of that??

Totally agree Phill and so does all the older guys here in Canberra. Any track you have to hit your brakes hard at just to be able to stay on your bike is not worth riding.

Its also scary to sit and watch the younger kids say under 10 go down this straight as they are lucky to get through each lap after being spat left and right up and down, lucky they still have crazy reflexes not like us older blokes :)

I trully hope something gets done about it but just can't see it.

Rob
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Manic_Schizo March 07, 2014, 10:24:01 PM
People saying that their kids need to be challenged with their riding therefore build these style of tracks need to get a clue. Take a cue from where this sport originates. Motocross and Supercross. You don't find National level supercross sections on club motocross tracks, and for good reason.  Why BMX track designers feel the need to do this infuriates me. Sorry to hear you guys refused to race your local state titles due to the dangers involved in riding that track. That is no good for anyone. Hearing that there were a lot of injuries as well has got to open a few peoples eyes and make them realise something isn't right.

With all the coverage BMX gets worldwide these days, why aren't people wanting to build tracks similar to the USA BMX national tracks. All those tracks have looked amazing so far this year. Super flowy, fast, and that equals fun. Heaps of different lines through every section. One line through a section, ie, jump or die, is no good for anyone. Leave that stuff where it belongs, on national level BMX Supercross tracks. Once you are at that level, you will get more than enough chance to ride that stuff. Or go build some dirt jumps old school style, and jump them.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: PKaye March 08, 2014, 09:01:04 AM
I truly believe that it is BMXA who is at fault here. Their ruling that you can't run a UCI round unless you have a 5m gate etc makes clubs push their tracks to ridiculous levels. I don't see the US running their UCI rounds on 5m gates, so where did BMXA get this from? It was funny that Bob from Doublecross in the US asked the question when he was watching the Aussies from Brisbane last year. His question was 'why are you guys riding on a supercross track for Nationals?'
The only way to get change is to lobby your clubs to fix it and bring everything back into harmony!!! LOL

ps I love ripping down a 5m gate so no I am not afraid of them. I just think they produce laziness with people relying on the hill rather than power out of the gate!
: Re: Modern Track Design
: hut hill March 08, 2014, 10:18:43 PM
Crash video at ACT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gXZ4dUEMxs&list=UUJm9oUSP5suzEwhH0_Q3U2A

This bloke does a good job.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: BMX March 08, 2014, 10:55:40 PM
I truly believe that it is BMXA who is at fault here. Their ruling that you can't run a UCI round unless you have a 5m gate etc makes clubs push their tracks to ridiculous levels.

2014 BMX Victoria State Titles will be a stand alone UCI event.

Host venue is Knox BMX club...start hill complies with UCI requirement of 2.5m start hill for a C1 class international event.

: Re: Modern Track Design
: Munchkin March 09, 2014, 08:03:18 AM
2014 BMX Victoria State Titles will be a stand alone UCI event.

Host venue is Knox BMX club...start hill complies with UCI requirement of 2.5m start hill for a C1 class international event.

Yeah, but it seems the governing bodies can bend the rules when they want.  Look at the Aussies in Perth, Held in an equestrian centre!  Side wall of the Arena was the side line.  I know I was put into the wall by a guy who did a bad manual and hit me.  Track was barely 240m long and extremely unsafe.  Nearly all passing was done by T-Boning the person in front of you as the corners were WAY too tight to carry any speed.  It could not have been compliant but they still ran it there!

Knox is an example of what this thread is about.  Main doubles on 1st straight is jump or apply brakes and hold on.  3rd straight is aimed directly at the Elite riders, Jump through it, do some extremely deep long manuals or do as 90% of the riders do, pump through it and hold on for dear life!!!  Even the A Pro riders struggle on this straight!  Where is the fun, excitement in that, for the rider or the spectator???
: Re: Modern Track Design
: fletch March 10, 2014, 07:50:43 PM
I see Blue lake have changed the 1st big double into a bigger tabletop, very cool,
: Re: Modern Track Design
: Waters29 March 11, 2014, 10:11:40 AM
I see Blue lake have changed the 1st big double into a bigger tabletop, very cool,

That is cool. I have been asking the Melba club to change the main problem of the HIDDEN PRO STRAIGHT which is the second double into a table top. This will not change anything at all for the people who want to jump the straight as they just jump as normal. But for every body else at least it means we can get through it safely and not have to slam on the brakes while dropping down the 13 foot dip before it.

I asked last week that since its now going to be 2 years until the next open meeting back at the Melba track, can we now fill it it and make it a table top and if need be remove the dirt for the ACT titles. Lets think about the club members for the next 2 years.

Fingers crossed but im sure it wont happen.

Rob
: Re: Modern Track Design
: fletch March 11, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
Your spot on mate, wont change anything for the guys and girls who can, but would encourage others to have a go with out the injury factor, good luck.
: Re: Modern Track Design
: fletch March 19, 2014, 08:08:05 PM
Some interesting reading here,

http://www.vintagebmx.com/community/index.php?showtopic=27067002&st=10